[Translation : EPALE France]

Interview for EPALE France with Marie-Laure Cuvelier, Consultant in third places and the social and solidarity-based economy at Madame Tiers-Lieux, Regional Councillor for Nouvelle-Aquitaine on the subject of participatory democracy.

EPALE: Marie-Laure Cuvelier, you are a specialist in third places. Can you introduce yourself?

Marie-Laure Cuvelier: I've been working as an independent consultant in third places since 2009.  In 2011, I co-founded the third-places cooperative and in 2019, France Tiers-lieux, of which I was secretary general for three years. I am currently a regional councillor for Nouvelle-Aquitaine, in charge of participatory democracy. I'm also a musician. My career is a good example of the “slashie” approach, a concept often found in third places which refers to people carrying out several professional and amateur activities with fewer and fewer defined boundaries between their private and professional lives.

EPALE: What is France Tiers-lieux?

Marie-Laure Cuvelier: France Tiers-lieux is a public interest group that brings together four ministries (the Ministries of Labour, Ecological Transition and Territorial Cohesion, Higher Education and Research and the Ministry responsible for SMEs), the National Agency for Territorial Cohesion and the National Association of Third Places. Its role is to facilitate relations between the various stakeholders and co-construct public policies for third places.

EPALE: How would you define third places?

Marie-Laure Cuvelier: My favourite definition is that of a place where ideas can flourish. It is deliberately vague. Third places are usually physical spaces where activities that are normally separate can be combined, allowing unlikely encounters between people who would not meet elsewhere, with a hybrid economic model in which for-profit activities support activities that are not for profit. They create all the conditions needed to allow everyone to suggest activities. They are places where individuals can realise their potential through the collective.

There are over 3,000 third places, some of which may misuse the term a bit - but that's OK! Initially, the term referred to an intermediary place that was neither home nor work. The term has been adopted throughout Europe but it is in France that the movement is the most structured and receives the most public support.

EPALE: How do these places promote learning?

Marie-Laure Cuvelier: There is no set answer, but bringing together people from different backgrounds with complementary skills allows spontaneous transmission: it is simply linked to the fact of frequenting the same space in a relationship that is not standardised, as it would be between colleagues in a company, a local government office, or a job centre, etc. Some people have even called for this goldmine of skills to be taken more seriously and gradually structured. A study carried out by Afpa on the subject mapped out this natural learning process, with a view to optimising it, turning it into something more akin to vocational training and forging links with the training sector. The idea is for third places and training organisations to be able to benefit from each other's expertise. It is conceivable that in the future, people who use a third place will be able to validate the skills they have acquired there.

What's more, in third places, everyone is welcome. No one is labelled and no special status is required to enter, get to know other people or find someone to talk to. Many are in rural areas or disadvantaged neighbourhoods.

France Tiers-lieu has also worked with the Haut-Commissariat aux Compétences, which became part of France Compétence on 31 December 2022, to co-write a call for projects called “Deffinov tiers-lieux”, which was very well funded, to bring together the vocational training and third-place sectors, encourage them to cooperate, analyse their respective practices and assess their interest in working together. This call for proposals is based on a regional structure, with €4.5 million in European funding for the New Aquitaine region, for example. Applications are already being processed.

EPALE: Are there any emblematic “learning” third places?

Marie-Laure Cuvelier: Few third places define themselves as such but there is a network called “Tiers-lieux edu”, which brings together teachers who voluntarily carried out experiments in their establishments, such as the creation of fab labs, with surprising results among children in difficulty who struggle with the school environment, or people with atypical profiles. These fab labs change the way students relate to teachers. The children sometimes find themselves fascinated by the technology and teachers reveal a different side to themselves! This network is fairly dynamic but lacks resources - the national education authorities are not interested in the approach.

There are also third places where you can take certified training courses, such as La Matière in La Rochelle, which promotes the circular economy. This third place has a large material library, made up of end-of-stock and damaged items. Trainees on vocational training courses can learn trades such as carpentry, for example. It gives people the chance to get stuck in with professionals. It’s an interesting experience, including for the professionals themselves.

In a different style, Macondo, near Montpellier, was created by citizens who came together to protest against the installation of a landfill site. Their outcry stopped the project, and with the funds they raised, they were able to build a small-scale photovoltaic power plant with shading. Underneath, they installed premises built of raw earth, which was also a fantastic opportunity for them to use their skills! Other stakeholders joined the process and it became a cooperative society. They then set up a partnership with ETRE, a network of French schools for the ecological transition, to attract school drop-outs and introduce them to eco-construction, permaculture, short-circuit market gardening, etc., all promising sectors with promising careers!

EPALE: What are the key skills of the future?

Marie-Laure Cuvelier: Adaptability: two-thirds of the professions that will be in use in ten years' time don’t exist yet. Then there are people skills, curiosity and creativity. And above all, the ability to cooperate, because this is a skill that can be acquired and it's all the more important in light of the growing sense of polarisation today, with people less and less inclined to listen to each other.